C# Guru - An Interview With Eric Lippert
Written by Nikos Vaggalis   
Thursday, 10 April 2014
Article Index
C# Guru - An Interview With Eric Lippert
Roslyn
Language features - C# and others
Looking to the future


NV: What other possibilities does Roslyn give rise to? Extending the language,  macros/mutable grammars,  Javascript like Eval, REPL?


EL: Some of those more than others.
Let me start by taking a step back and reiterating what Roslyn is, and is not. Roslyn is a class library usable from C#, VB or other managed languages.Its purpose is to enable analysis of C# and VB code. The plan is for future versions of the C# and VB compilers and IDEs in Visual Studio to themselves use Roslyn.

So typical tasks you could perform with Roslyn would be things like:


"Find all usages of a particular method in this source code"
"Take this source code and give me the lexical and grammatical analysis"
"Tell me all the places this variable is written to inside this block"


Let me quickly say what it is not. It is not a mechanism for customers to themselves extend the C# or VB languages; it is a mechanism for analyzing the existing languages. Roslyn will make it easier for Microsoft to extend the C# and VB languages, because its architecture has been designed with that in mind. But it was not designed as an extensibility service for the language itself.


You mentioned a REPL. That is a Read-Eval-Print Loop, which is the classic way you interface with languages like Scheme. Since the Roslyn team was going to be re-architecting the compiler anyway they put in some features that would make it easier to develop REPL-like functionality in Visual Studio. Having left the team, I don't know what the status is of that particular feature, so I probably ought not to comment on it further.


One of the principle scenarios that Roslyn was designed for is to make it much easier for third parties to develop refactorings. You've probably seen in Visual Studio that there is a refactoring menu and you can do things like "extract this code to a method" and so on.
Any of those refactorings, and a lot more, could be built using Roslyn.

As for if there will be an eval-like facility for spitting fresh code at runtime, like there is in JavaScript, the answer is sort of.
I worked on JavaScript in the late 1990s, including the JScript.NET langauge that never really went anywhere, so I have no small experience in building implementations of JS "eval". It is very hard.
JavaScript is a very dynamic language; you can do things like introduce new local variables in "eval" code.

There is to my knowledge no plan for that sort of very dynamic feature in C#. However, there are things you can do to solve the simpler problem of generating fresh code at runtime. The CLR of course already has Reflection Emit. At a higher level, C# 3.0 added expression trees. Expression trees allow you to build a tree representing a C# or VB expression at runtime, and then compile that expression into a little method. The IL is generated for you automatically.


If you are analysing source code with Roslyn then there is I believe a facility for asking Roslyn "suppose I inserted this source code at this point in this program -- how would you analyze the new code?"
And if at runtime you started up Roslyn and said "here's a bunch of source code, can you give me a compiled assembly?" then of course Roslyn could do that. If someone wanted to build a little expression evaluator that used Roslyn as a lightweight code generator, I think that would be possible, but I've never tried it.
It seems like a good experiment. Maybe I'll try to do that.


NV: So let's get back to C#. It looks like it's all about C#, in the sense that everything revolves around it, being Microsoft's spearhead, first line language. Which raises the question whether it's worth looking at VB.NET’s direction anymore?

EL: I would deny the premise of the question. C# is undoubtedly an important language for Microsoft. So is Visual Basic, F#, JavaScript and C++.

So let's talk a bit about VB.
I love VB.
My first job at Microsoft as an intern was keeping the VB build machines running. (Of course there is now an entire team of people dedicated to that, but in 1993 the VB build lab was an intern, six machines and a closet!) And in the 21 years since I cannot even begin to count the number of times I've been asked if Microsoft is about to drop support for VB.

VB is an important language to Microsoft and to Microsoft's customers for a long time. The Roslyn project demonstrates that Microsoft is very willing to make huge investments in the future of VB.

Believe me, it would have been a lot easier to make Roslyn only about C#, keep VB in maintenance, not add any new features, and so on. But that's not the decision that we made. Rather, we chose to re-architect both compilers so that they would meet the needs of modern programming language consumers for a long time to come.

NV:Although, the TPL and async/await were great additions to both C# and the framework, they were also cause of a lot of commotion,  generating more questions than answers:

What's the difference between Asynchrony and Parallelism?

EL: Great question. Parallelism is one technique for achieving asynchrony, but asynchrony does not necessarily imply parallelism.

An asynchronous situation is one where there is some latency between a request being made and the result being delivered, such that you can continue to process work while you are waiting. Parallelism is a technique for achieving asynchrony, by hiring workers – threads – that each do tasks synchronously but in parallel.

An analogy might help. Suppose you’re in a restaurant kitchen. Two orders come in, one for toast and one for eggs.

A synchronous workflow would be: put the bread in the toaster, wait for the toaster to pop, deliver the toast, put the eggs on the grill, wait for the eggs to cook, deliver the eggs. The worker – you – does nothing while waiting except sit there and wait.

An asynchronous but non-parallel workflow would be: put the bread in the toaster. While the toast is toasting, put the eggs on the grill. Alternate between checking the eggs, checking the toast, and checking to see if there are any new orders coming in that could also be started.

Whichever one is done first, deliver first, then wait for the other to finish, again, constantly checking to see if there are new orders.

An asynchronous parallel workflow would be: you just sit there waiting for orders. Every time an order comes in, go to the freezer where you keep your cooks, thaw one out, and assign the order to them. So you get one cook for the eggs, one cook for the toast, and while they are cooking, you keep on looking for more orders. When each cook finishes their job, you deliver the order and put the cook back in the freezer.

You’ll notice that the second mechanism is the one actually chosen by real restaurants because it combines low labour costs – cooks are expensive – with responsiveness and high throughput. The first technique has poor throughput and responsiveness, and the third technique requires paying a lot of cooks to sit around in the freezer when you really could get by with just one.

NV: If async does not start a new thread in the background how can it perform I/O bound operations and not block the UI thread?

EL: Magic!

No, not really.

Remember, fundamentally I/O operations are handled in hardware: there is some disk controller or network controller that is spinning an iron disk or varying the voltage on a wire, and that thing is running independently of the CPU.

The operating system provides an abstraction over the hardware, such as an I/O completion port. The exact details of how many threads are listening to the I/O completion port and what they do when they get a message, well, all that is complicated.

Suffice to say, you do not have to have one thread for each asynchronous I/O operation any more than you would have to hire one admin assistant for every phone call you wanted answered.


NV: Is async useful only in cases of I/O bound operations?
 

EL: It is useful any time obtaining the result of a computation is significantly removed in time from when the result was requested.
I/O operations are an excellent example of high-latency operations but they are far from the only example.

Suppose for example that you have a CPU-intensive computation to perform that will take several billion machine cycles. On a multi-core machine, there’s no reason for the CPU that is running the UI thread to block while it is waiting for the CPU running the computation to finish; the UI thread should continue to service the UI.

Or, suppose you are writing a game. When the player presses a button there is a siren, then three seconds later a door opens. That can be logically broken down into three tasks: start the siren, delay three seconds, open the door.  During that three second delay, you still want the UI to be able to respond to other events. The delay and the subsequent door opening are logically an asynchronous operation; you want the thread to keep on working while it is waiting for the door to open. But it would be strange indeed to start one thread for the siren, one thread for the delay, and one thread for the door.

NV: Is that an OS feature that was always there, available only to low level programming but it's now given access to from high level programming as well ?

EL: Asynchronous I/O was always available to C# programmers; the Stream base class for example has ReadAsync and BeginRead methods for asynchronous I/O. However, using these methods often meant writing your code in a difficult, sort of “inside out” fashion. The Task Parallel library and the await feature in C# 5 make it a lot easier to write code that looks like traditional synchronous code, but is actually asynchronous.



Last Updated ( Thursday, 10 April 2014 )
 
 

   
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